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A solution to Mercenary Pack debacle we can all live with

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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2677	Posted - 2013.05.05 02:00:00 - [1] - Quote So, basically, the suggestion I've been trying to push for all along? +1 to OP because he's agreeing with what I've kept saying every single time this discussion came up. Also, just to clarify some points for you guys, here's the FULL text on the Merc Pack description as agreed at the time I purchased mine: Quote: IMPORTANT NOTICE: During beta periods, CCP may need to reset characters, skills and other items included in the DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack. DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted. Now lets focus on why I think the current "solution" is really strongly against what was agreed to. Quote:* No other form of refund is permitted. That was obviously put there to avoid customers trying to change the deal, but CCP are overlooking the fact that it ALSO PREVENTS THEM FROM CHANGING THE DEAL.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2677	Posted - 2013.05.05 02:57:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: What's been decided by CCP has been finalized. Besides, if you ever took the time to purchase all of the militia BPOs when they were dirt cheap (about 50-100 AUR) then you will get a huge influx of extra (FREE) AUR refunded to you anyways. What's been decided by CCP has been "finalised" but also leaves them wide open to perfectly-valid complaints of not honouring the terms agreed to in the Merc Pack. Which means the discussion is still open until it actually happens. And even then, the way is open for further complaints.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2678	Posted - 2013.05.05 03:38:00 - [3] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: What's been decided by CCP has been finalized. Besides, if you ever took the time to purchase all of the militia BPOs when they were dirt cheap (about 50-100 AUR) then you will get a huge influx of extra (FREE) AUR refunded to you anyways. What's been decided by CCP has been "finalised" but also leaves them wide open to perfectly-valid complaints of not honouring the terms agreed to in the Merc Pack. Which means the discussion is still open until it actually happens. And even then, the way is open for further complaints. Quote: Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted. But this isn't a different "form of refund", the merc pack will be credited in full for release, just like the original agreement says. They have followed that agreement to the letter, nowhere does it say they can't reset characters. It's a conditional credit of Merc Pack contents requiring a reset other players aren't subject to. That isn't the same as the refund agreed to.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2682	Posted - 2013.05.05 04:32:00 - [4] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: It's a conditional credit of Merc Pack contents requiring a reset other players aren't subject to. That isn't the same as the refund agreed to. Except getting a reset isn't a condition for being refunded, getting refunded is the condition for getting a reset. Who would want a reset? I have no idea, but that's the way they worded it. I suppose you could still say that it's a conditional refunded because they're letting you choose between "yes" and "no", and you only get it if you pick "yes" Then again, I know nothing about law, so i'll shut up now You want a refund? On the condition that you let us reset you. The reset is a condition for the refund, not the other way around. And regardless of the fact that you're wrong, that's an argument over semantics and doesn't directly relate to the issue at hand anyway. What DOES matter is that CCP are telling us we have to accept a character reset to get something they agreed to give us without including a reset as part of the deal. And the Merc Pack terms specifically stated that changing the deal isn't an option, which means it's not an option for THEM any more than it is for ME.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2682	Posted - 2013.05.05 04:44:00 - [5] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: One thing though, I'm pretty sure "No other form of refund is permitted" simply means that they can't give you real life money, or just send you a PSN card or something, it must be done with in-game currency. Not that they can't offer you other deals, regardless of how bad those deals might be. If they were giving us this option AS WELL AS the option they already agreed to give us, then there wouldn't be an argument, would there? They're saying, "instead of the refund we agreed to give you with the restriction that no other refunds are permitted, we're going to offer you something far less worthwhile to you and still keep your money."
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2685	Posted - 2013.05.05 05:25:00 - [6] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: we're going to offer you something far less worthwhile to you They're offering to let you keep your stats in exchange for not getting a refund. Is that something that's worthwhile to you? I don't know, but your opinion on it doesn't matter either way. CCP gets to decide the "value" of your time in game, not you. So you're saying that there's a reset for everyone except Merc Pack customers? Because that's what this would imply. No. No they aren't. People who DIDN'T buy the Merc Pack keep their SP. People who did buy it, with the agreed condition that CCP would credit back the contents of the pack on release, are now being told that we DON'T get that unless we ALSO agree to have our progress - AND ONLY OUR PROGRESS - wiped completely after being promised that wouldn't happen. Quote: Quote: You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, e.g., by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including without limitation all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP So if they decide that the value of the merc pack is of equal to worth to everything on the character you use, then they can make such a deal, because they're changing the merc pack for something "of equal value" i.e. the time you've played and anything you gained from it. Again, they can do this, IF they reset everybody else with it. Quote: "But CCP isn't resetting other people", this is true, but CCP doesn't actually need a justifiable reason to adjust anybodies stats/SP/assets, they simply can, because none of us have any "interest" in the value of our time. Everything on the characters we use belongs to them, and they can do whatever they want to any of our characters. This isn't exactly a good way to build PR or trust, but I'm pretty sure that they haven't broken any laws or agreements. Then again, I'm no lawyer No, you're right, CCP doesn't need to have a reason to reset us if they decide they want to. But they've tied this reset to the Merc Pack refund, which means they're not offering the refund we were promised, and are instead offering a different, more restrictive refund in spite of that not being valid according to the terms to which both parties agreed. While it's much less ethical, it would be closer to a legitimate aswer if CCP decided to select a group of customers to wipe the progress of as an experiment, and it "just happened" to include all the early Merc Pack customers and nobody else, then give us all back our Merc Packs and say, "there's your refund". But they've specifically stated that this reset is part of the refund process, which violates the terms they set out for us.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2685	Posted - 2013.05.05 06:08:00 - [7] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: imo the way they did it is fine. CCP said they'd reset AUR/Merc Packs, and now they are. There was nothing about having a reset or not when the game went full release. If that's hard to understand, perhaps an example might help. > CCP intended to reset SP, ISK and items for everyone, along with merc packs/aur on full release > CCP decided the players did not want their characters reset again > CCP gave the players an option not to have a reset, and put that as the default > CCP is still doing the reset for those who want it I'm not defending CCP, I just love your tears. Get pwnd. I am probably going to reset an alt, but I find this QQ amusing. Explain the "and" in the line "every reset and for the commercial release" then? Because if they always intended to reset us on release, it should have read "including the commercial release", or better yet, they should have just ended with the word "reset" and avoided the whole mess they've thrown themselves into here.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2686	Posted - 2013.05.05 06:24:00 - [8] - Quote low genius wrote: if you had an idea, you should have brought it up a month ago when ccp was asking what a good solution was. the OP sounds like QQing to me, but then every aurum warrior sounds like a qqer... I think it's worth mentioning that the proposed solution in this thread ISN'T a new idea, and is one that's been suggested multiple times by multiple Merc Pack buyers, myself included, going almost all the way back to when CCP first announced "no more resets". So this WAS an option we'd put on the table as an acceptable solution, whereas the "solution" CCP are going with was almost entirely based on people whining that it's "unfair" to let customers who picked the game up early any more of a headstart than we already got when all our progress was still getting repeatedly reset.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2691	Posted - 2013.05.05 07:04:00 - [9] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: I think it's worth mentioning that the proposed solution in this thread ISN'T a new idea, and is one that's been suggested multiple times by multiple Merc Pack buyers, myself included, going almost all the way back to when CCP first announced "no more resets". So this WAS an option we'd put on the table as an acceptable solution, whereas the "solution" CCP are going with was almost entirely based on people whining that it's "unfair" to let customers who picked the game up early any more of a headstart than we already got when all our progress was still getting repeatedly reset. The actual solution they went with was something I, a closed-beta merc pack buyer, suggested and found support amongst many other merc pack buyers. Too bad your side lost, we won. Source that says it's already happened and nobody arguing for what we were legitimately promised has pressed the issue and forced CCP to change their plans? Because I'm pretty sure this isn't over until it's ACTUALLY over...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2694	Posted - 2013.05.05 08:26:00 - [10] - Quote Lune Solitaire wrote: I refuse to believe that anyone who bought a Merc Pack thought to themselves upon using it "Man I can't wait to get all my boosters and AUR back when the game hits commercial release AND keep all my hard-earned boosted SP just like the terms and conditions said because I was sure to go over them with a fine-toothed comb!" It doesn't require a fine-toothed comb to find a single paragraph in a block of text that's little more than an itemised list of contents and that single paragraph I "found". It's pretty hard to miss, actually, and the wording is pretty clear. "every character reset and for the commercial release" doesn't mean "every character reset including commercial release". It doesn't mean "every character reset and with an optional character reset at commercial release" either. It also doesn't mean "every character reset and maybe at commercial release if we feel like honouring a legally-binding agreement we made with you and took your money for". Quote: Obviously CCP won't wipe everyone clean again because that would cause a lot of the userbase to quit as they feel they've invested too much time to start over again. However, after the last reset they clearly said there would be no more resets barring extreme circumstances so anyone who disregarded that and proceeded to use up all their boosters and AUR in the most inefficient way possible has no right to complain. The whole commercial release argument was on precisely zero people's minds when they started using up their AUR. You're right. There's definitely nobody who's been bringing this topic up ever since they announced the final reset.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2699	Posted - 2013.05.05 10:37:00 - [11] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: Garrett, the solution CCP put forth IS one we can all live with. And no, you can't sit around and parse the language and unilaterally decide how it should be interpreted. Your view of the interpretation is clearly in the minority. At the time of writing it was likely assumed commercial release would bring a reset for the purpose of starting with a level playing field. Just stop QQing you big baby. I've already posted this tonight, but what the kitten... lrn2ingrish. Quote: *IMPORTANT NOTICE: During beta periods, CCP may need to reset characters, skills and other items included in the DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack. DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted. This is NOT ambiguous wording. It doesn't imply (in any way) that a character reset is required for the Merc Pack to be refunded on commercial release. The use of the word "and" in the context in which it's used implies the exact opposite - a refund of the Merc Pack's contents WITHOUT a reset. Whether people chose to take it that way or not, that IS what the description said when I bought my Merc Pack, and it IS what the description said for many other customers buying the same product. I'm not "parsing" the language, just reposting what was clearly stated and pointing out that it was clearly stated. People trying to argue against these facts have "I assumed it meant (insert inaccurate assumption) instead of what it actually said" to try and hold their arguments up. I'm sorry to hear that the people who actually know how to read are in the minority, but that doesn't mean we're wrong. It just means the majority are idiots. And a large portion of that majority are people who didn't buy the Merc Pack and don't have any right to tell paying customers what rights they think we should have over our own purchases.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2701	Posted - 2013.05.05 11:10:00 - [12] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: LOL. Dude, you are just forcing an extraction of meaning from the AND clause... for your own interpretation. Any court would look at the intent at the time and it's clear a reset would have been expected -- and FFS every other refund involved a reset so use your brains and figure it out. Just stop being an idiot. So what you're saying is that you don't believe there's a clearly-defined meaning for the word "and"? Cool story. As I said before, lrn2ingrish. I used to know a guy who was better at understanding English than you after studying it for 2 weeks in France. Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Quote: IMPORTANT NOTICE: During beta periods, CCP may need to reset characters, skills and other items included in the DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack. DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted. Merc pack refunded in full after each chara reset and for commercial release The 14th is commercial release but also you will be refunded the merc pack back because you are also getting a chara reset aswell CCP gives you the merc pack back, but you get a full chara reset for commercial release And another one who seems to have missed what the word "and" means. I'm not sure how many times I've had to explain this, but these do NOT all have the same meaning: Quote:* after each character reset and for the commercial release. "after each character reset including the commercial release." "after each character reset." "after each character reset and maybe for the commercial release if we feel like it." "after each character reset and for the commercial release, but only if you opt in for another character reset." In case you're not entirely sure, the quote is what many of us agreed to when we bought the Merc Pack. The others are definitely not what we paid for.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2701	Posted - 2013.05.05 11:20:00 - [13] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: It just happens that the chara reset happens on the same day as the commercial release when you get your merc pack back Source that says everyone's getting reset and not just the people who opt in for a reset to get their stuff back? Because until that's confirmed, this is still a forced reset in exchange for something we were promised on purchase of the Merc Pack, which goes against the condition that "no other refund is permitted".
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2701	Posted - 2013.05.05 11:31:00 - [14] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: It just happens that the chara reset happens on the same day as the commercial release when you get your merc pack back Source that says everyone's getting reset and not just the people who opt in for a reset to get their stuff back? Because until that's confirmed, this is still a forced reset in exchange for something we were promised on purchase of the Merc Pack, which goes against the condition that "no other refund is permitted". Its not a forced reset Its an agreement, it just happens that commercial release means a reset for you to claim back the merc packs, you are getting the refund of the merc pack back I dont have to claim my merc packs back because i didnt play internet lawyer and im happy with what i have I still have everything that I might have wanted back. I'm not losing or gaining anything by pushing for this. I'm pressing the point because this ISN'T the deal that was agreed to on purchase. What I'm asking for - and I'm not alone, in spite of some people seeming to think otherwise (I shouldn't have to say this when there have been several posters showing up supporting my argument) - is for CCP to actually honour the agreement they made. That's all. The current proposal is NOT what they agreed to when we gave them our money. Simple. You'll notice I said "a forced reset IN EXCHANGE FOR SOMETHING WE WERE PROMISED" not just that it's a forced reset. If we want what was ORGIINALLY SPECIFIED AS PART OF THE DEAL WE PAID FOR, we have to take a reset that other players aren't subjected to. We either don't get what we paid for, or we lose something we had been offered, and which NON-PAYING CUSTOMERS STILL GET TO KEEP.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2701	Posted - 2013.05.05 12:31:00 - [15] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: I still have everything that I might have wanted back. I'm not losing or gaining anything by pushing for this. I'm pressing the point because this ISN'T the deal that was agreed to on purchase. What I'm asking for - and I'm not alone, in spite of some people seeming to think otherwise (I shouldn't have to say this when there have been several posters showing up supporting my argument) - is for CCP to actually honour the agreement they made. That's all. The current proposal is NOT what they agreed to when we gave them our money. Simple. You'll notice I said "a forced reset IN EXCHANGE FOR SOMETHING WE WERE PROMISED" not just that it's a forced reset. If we want what was ORGIINALLY SPECIFIED AS PART OF THE DEAL WE PAID FOR, we have to take a reset that other players aren't subjected to. We either don't get what we paid for, or we lose something we had been offered, and which NON-PAYING CUSTOMERS STILL GET TO KEEP. Non paying customers didnt buy the merc pack so thats invalid You were promised a merc pack refund for reset/commercial release and you are getting that We were promised a refund at commercial release. We WEREN'T promised a reset at commercial release. Non-paying customers don't have to give something up to keep their SP. People who bought the Merc Pack are being told we can either keep our SP or get the refund of the Merc Pack which they promised us on release. That means they're adding a condition to the refund that wasn't specified at the time of purchase, and which doesn't fit with what was agreed to by CCP at that time.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2702	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:17:00 - [16] - Quote Marston VC wrote: ....... If you get your AUR refunded...... you would just buy more Boosters??? Unless you mean you don't get the AUR back if it was spent on a booster but I mean still....... ive got like 20k spent in my raven type 1 suit...... and thousands of AUR elsewhere..... so I mean..... I would still buy a crap ton of boosters given that its not like I would lose the stuff ive already bought. Have you even read the OP? You can't buy "more" Boosters with AUR that hadn't been used to buy Boosters in the first place. The AUR spent on Boosters isn't being refunded under this suggestion. The booster that came with the Merc Pack is also not being refunded. Either of those options would let players "double dip" on SP bonuses, and would be unfair on players who didn't hear about the Merc Pack, but not unfair on people who were here all along but didn't pay attention in their English classes. Takahiro Kashuken wrote: They have the right to change conditions and it seems a reset is need for those who want merc packs back because CCP cannot calculate how much SP/ISK you gain from using the merc pack and its AUR Plus now its really sounding like that you want another merc pack without taking a hit in SP or ISK They have the right to change things WITHIN the beta, but they DON'T have the right to change the terms of a purchase agreement made outside of the beta. If the Merc Pack was directly purchased inside the game client, then the EULA would apply. But it isn't, so that argument doesn't hold. And as I keep saying, I want CCP to give customers what they promised. I'm not personally benefitting from this. At all. Keep believing otherwise if it helps you sleep, but I still have my Booster, and everything but my Dragonfly and Toxin, sitting in storage waiting to be assigned, and I haven't deleted my Blueprints either. I spent most of my AUR, but I spent it all on more Blueprints, so I'll be getting a full refund - with some early purchases refunded at an increased price. This isn't about me getting more stuff. It's about CCP doing what they agreed to do. I'm asking for a proper solution that will give me precisely NOTHING that I'm not getting under their current offer. Not. One. Single. Thing. NOTHING. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. It's not about me. What I'm asking for is NOT to get any Boosters refunded. What the OP is asking for is NOT to get any Boosters refunded. We aren't asking for double the SP gains. We're asking for a FAIR solution that honours the agreement made without punishing paying customers for supporting a game before it was anywhere near ready for release.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2702	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:35:00 - [17] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: What I'm asking for is NOT to get any Boosters refunded. What the OP is asking for is NOT to get any Boosters refunded. We aren't asking for double the SP gains. We're asking for a FAIR solution that honours the agreement made without punishing paying customers for supporting a game before it was anywhere near ready for release. The current solution is precisely fair. You can get everything back and start the newly released game from scratch like everyone else who wasn't in a beta -- as was promised. Or, you can quit crying and decide you'd rather forgo the refund and keep the SP you gained during beta. Except that's NOT what was promised. We weren't promised a conditional refund that requires us to lose progress other players get to keep.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2702	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:51:00 - [18] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: They didnt get the merc pack or are not playing internet lawyer and are happy with the SP/ISK You have a choice, CCP has given you a choice for everyone who bought that merc pack You are still asking for another merc pack without taking a hit to your chara I'm still getting the same content either way. Do you not read? I'm not missing out. I'm arguing this because it will affect people - NOT ME PERSONALLY - who bought the Merc Pack and used content in it with the understanding that it would be credited back on release. There were no conditions except commercial release attached to that refund. They're NOW coming back and saying "but only if you let us wipe your progress without doing the same to other people who didn't help us fund the project early on". They're shafting the most loyal customers in order to be "fair" on the newcomers and late adopters and they're ignoring a better solution that doesn't pull the rug out from under people who only want the deal that we agreed to pay for.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2702	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:55:00 - [19] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Except that's NOT what was promised. We weren't promised a conditional refund that requires us to lose progress other players get to keep. You weren't promised an unconditional refund. You made the assumption, after the fact, that a reset would not be required. This was your own assumption made AFTER CCP suggested that we'd not have to undergo further resets. I never assumed a refund would require a reset. I never assumed it would require us not to be reset either. I DID assume that people who were paying for the development of the game would be treated fairly, though, and unfortunately, my assumption is being proven wrong. CCP violate my trust, I stop paying their bills. I hope they realise their mistake, but with as many voices like yours ignoring the facts in favour of bowing down before the developers, I'm not sure they will.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2702	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:36:00 - [20] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: TheReaper545 wrote: Actually let me try again you are confusing your facts as an opinion because you clearly can not see the true facts in front of you. Everything he has posted and my single post is true. Legalese is open to interpretation. You have the option to not take your refund as originally conceived or take it as originally conceived. Actually, you have the option to take your refund with an additional unwanted condition, or to forgo the refund to avoid said condition.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2702	Posted - 2013.05.05 15:24:00 - [21] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: Regardless, wording aside, the two are equivalent so it doesn't matter anyway. The two options being offered are equivalent, yes. One is a complete negation of the original offer of a reset on release. The other is a complete negation of any value that offer had. Neither is actually honouring the deal as agreed. Both are equivalent, because both are equally bad and equally unfair on paying customers who expected to be given what we actually paid for. And here's part of a post from the other thread which is probably more relevant here. I notice that nobody actually adressed this point at all. Garrett Blacknova wrote: This is an attempt to find a middle ground where nobody - paying or not - is being shafted by CCP. Do you have a VALID argument against the solution of refunding non-Booster content and leaving the Boosters as SP? By "valid" I mean actually a relevant complaint about CCP doing it. Not "I don't get as many tears this way" and not a poorly-veiled insult to someone's intelligence instead of a rational response (which isn't the best way to support your argument, by the way). Not "I don't like it so you're a doody-head". Not "haha QQ more, scrub". Not "I don't like it". Not "I think the proposed solution is fair enough". Can you come up with a relevant negative point that would explain why my preferred solution is a bad idea? The only argument I've seen so far with even the vaguest semblance of validity was "it would be hard for CCP to implement". If that's it, I don't see any good reason not to do it. It would be hard for CCP to go from never having developed any FPS game in their company's history to producing one that's had over 2 million characters created, but look what's happened? Anyone got an answer? A GOOD reason why we shouldn't be given something that actually provides a valid solution? Anyone? I'm not kidding. If you have a PROPER answer, I'd love to hear it.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2704	Posted - 2013.05.05 16:27:00 - [22] - Quote No response? What a surprise...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2725	Posted - 2013.05.07 03:09:00 - [23] - Quote I'm just bringing this thread back, because it's still an issue that isn't being addressed. We have a VALID solution here, and we have legitimate arguments in favour of this solution over the offer CCP have made, including "that isn't the deal we paid for". We have, as yet, a total of ZERO valid arguments against this proposal. Any takers?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2725	Posted - 2013.05.07 03:18:00 - [24] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: No response? What a surprise... They don't respond to stuff like this. They take your suggestions and then drop a hit of acid. Then someone comes and spins them around in a chair. They then launch a dart at a wall full of words. After a few hours they piece together the words and use this document to fix stuff. No. I meant from ANYONE, not just the devs. My post immediately before the one you quoted was an open invitation for ANYONE to provide a valid reason why the proposal in this thread shouldn't be considered.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2730	Posted - 2013.05.07 04:43:00 - [25] - Quote ...and still no counter-arguments?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2762	Posted - 2013.05.08 02:05:00 - [26] - Quote How are you guys missing the part where it says "AND for commercial release"? Yes, that WOULD fix it, but it isn't the ONLY solution. In many ways it is the most logical solution, but it's one the devs have specifically stated they WON'T be doing. Which leaves us with the option of shafting us as they currently seem intent on doing, shafting non-paying players, or taking the suggestion in this thread. Which is the better option? Punishing people who didn't give you money, punishing people who did, or rewarding those who gave you money FAIRLY, without punishing those who didn't? Seriously, read the OP. Probably twice through, just to be totally clear. Try - TRY - to come up with an argument against it, other than "a full reset is the only option" or "but you people just want more Boosters".
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2780	Posted - 2013.05.08 05:24:00 - [27] - Quote Takron Nistrom wrote: No one seems to notice how many times they got to reuse their merc packs during the beta. I think it's a fair trade. every full reset they got all their stuff back. The agreement for the merc packs was written on the condidition of a full reset. We decided we didn't want a full reset so the merc packs stay used. I am ok with that. I would rather keep my progress than get my merc packs back that i got to use like a dozen times. I am happy with what they decided. if you don't like it, reset your character and get your stuff back. otherwise, stop being greedy and shut the kitten up. You obviously haven't read the terms for the pre-open beta Merc Pack. Until you have, stop being uninformed or shut the kitten up. Just in case you want to know what's ACTUALLY going on, here's a link to my first post in the thread, where I provide the entire terms given on the Merc Pack description. You'll notice that it DOESN'T say we only get refunds at each reset, but SPECIFICALLY states that we get a further refund at commercial release. NOT that we have an optional refund requiring us to accept a reset of our character that other players won't be subjected to.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2918	Posted - 2013.05.11 02:46:00 - [28] - Quote Still not seeing any valid counter-argument against this suggestion. Any word from CCP yet? Nope.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2929	Posted - 2013.05.11 10:24:00 - [29] - Quote And another bump for visibility...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2956	Posted - 2013.05.14 09:37:00 - [30] - Quote Darius Ashran wrote: Stop nercroing a dead thread its over a weak old. Can a Gm lock this please? I'll stop "necroing" a "dead" thread when it stops being relevant or there's a more recent thread on the topic with all the relevant information from this thread and something new on top of that. When will you stop backseat moderating?

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2956	Posted - 2013.05.14 10:02:00 - [31] - Quote GLiMPSE X wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Darius Ashran wrote: Stop nercroing a dead thread its over a weak old. Can a Gm lock this please? I'll stop "necroing" a "dead" thread when it stops being relevant or there's a more recent thread on the topic with all the relevant information from this thread and something new on top of that. When will you stop backseat moderating? You received the benefits from the merc packs as you kept your progress that was gained by using those items. Let's stop trying to get something for free regardless of the language that was used. I'm sure a reasonable person could understand the spirit in which those claims were made. I'm sure a reasonable person could understand that "and" doesn't mean the same as "including". I'm sure a reasonable person could understand that "every reset and commercial release" means that early adopters were offered a little extra for helping to fund development on an unproven product that was still in closed beta. A reasonable person SHOULD be able to understand the spirit in which these claims are being made. Apparently you're not a reasonable person though. We're not asking for more than we agreed to when we bought the Merc Pack. In my case, I'm not even asking for anything I don't already have. Either the option we're being given right now or the proposal in this thread will result in literally exactly the same thing for me. Not a single change. EXACTLY. THE. SAME. It won't affect my personal situation at all. I'm arguing this because what CCP are offering doesn't hold true to what they offered, and doesn't hold true to the intent under which many customers purchased the Merc Pack.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2958	Posted - 2013.05.14 11:15:00 - [32] - Quote GLiMPSE X wrote: You're upset, I understand. I'm sure the CCP gods are sitting behind their keyboards taking your melodramatic banter seriously. Thanks for being so offended by my "melodramatic banter" to help me keep the thread alive. Very kind of you.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2978	Posted - 2013.05.15 10:51:00 - [33] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Arramakaian Eka wrote: CCP, as of yesterday you failed to address this issue by launch, haven't responded to any of the threads about this issue, yet point us to the forums when we raise a support ticket on the subject. I take it that means you have decided that you will not take further action, or even extend a goodwill gesture to rectify this. You are going against the very clear language of the Merc Pack advertisements and terms you yourself created. This is likely in breach of contract, and in the very least, it is clearly against the intent and spirit of the original Merc Pack offer. Further, this sets the precedent that you will do as you please when it comes to your customer's money, and will change policies of AUR items at your discretion, with little to no regard to the impact it has on your paying customers. That is an untenable state of affairs. I will not be spending any more money on Dust, as my trust in CCP handling this and future disputes in a transparent and fair manner is zero. This rant is still going on? CCP did a soft roll out and reset the characters when we hit the production server. The majority of the players were totally happy with it. You want to play games with legal wording. Now they are offering you the full merc pack reset you asked for to meet those terms and don't like the how it affects you. You want to keep your SP or get your merc packs reset? You get one or the other. Take the reset. Get your precious aurum back to spend a second or third time and end this. I'm holding on to my skill points. Which part of the agreement specified that we have to take a character reset in order to be eligible for the credit of our Merc Pack contents? Hint: The correct answer is "they never said that".
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2978	Posted - 2013.05.15 11:04:00 - [34] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Which part of the agreement specified that we have to take a character reset in order to be eligible for the credit of our Merc Pack contents? Hint: The correct answer is "they never said that". EXACTLY If you still want a refund they have the right to take away the benefit you had while using the contents of those packs. Try actually reading what I said before claiming that I agree with you. The terms specify a full credit of the Merc Pack on commercial release. NOT a conditional credit that requires us to agree to a character reset, which is what the current "offer" is. The lack of response from CCP on this issue is frustrating as well.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2978	Posted - 2013.05.15 11:27:00 - [35] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: I did read what you said. Your point was they didn't say one way or another that the full reset was attached to the deal and I agreed with you. Now we are at commercial release, CCP has responded and is offering you a full reset of all Merc Packs that you have purchased. If you think that was my point, you should probably stay in school. If you're not still in school, going back is probably well worth considering. The point was that they said there WILL BE A FULL CREDIT for people who bought the Merc Pack, and they DIDN'T include any condition of a reset on that credit. Quote: My point remains, you don't like the fact that you have to choose between keeping what you have earned or resetting to get back the full contents of the packs. My other point remains in that most people understood that the situation changed when CCP decided to go ahead and introduce mercenaries to the live servers and reset us early. They made it abundantly clear that the reset was happening before the 'beta' tag was being removed and changed the wording on the merc packs being sold shortly after that.The situation was fluid and most of us adapted without issue. The terms which CCP agreed to when we bought the Merc Pack aren't "fluid" and weren't changed by CCP's decision not to reset everyone. Customers have the right to ask for what CCP agreed to when we bought our Merc Packs. Changing the terms on the Merc Pack after people already brought it doesn't change the terms that were already agreed to with those purchases. It only means that early adopters were sold something that was no longer on the table. Quote: To meet the agreement of the original merc pack they now offer a full refund with a full reset, putting you back to when we made the transition to Tranquility. If you still don't think that meets the agreement then hire a lawyer at $200 an hour and fight it. Or I could ask my best friend's mother who is a lawyer, or any of several friends currently in law school and willing to run as advisors for a case where I represent myself in a small claims court. Or alternatively, I can choose not to waste my money on lawyers OR on paying CCP's bills for a while. I'm not being negatively impacted by this either way, so while I'm going to keep arguing the point here, I'm NOT going to waste effort on legal action, and if CCP are offering something that I'm actually interested in (right now they aren't), I might eventually spend more money with them. But it's going to be a while before I give them anything if they don't address the legitimate complaints about this "offer" they're making. Quote: CCP has responded. Now you get to choose. And I choose to question the legitimacy of the offer. Your point?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2978	Posted - 2013.05.15 12:05:00 - [36] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: At this point, I'm not at my computer so I can't pull up exact terms and quotes. But I warn you, you are fighting a losing battle. The exact terms are on the first page of this thread. Feel free to look them up if you want. I know the battle I'm fighting, and the reason why. I also know (and have specifically mentioned in recent posts) what I'm doing about it. Quote: I will request a lock for this thread because this issue has already been addressed. No, it hasn't been addressed. Requesting a response from CCP through the Support system gets directed to the forums. So far, there has been no answer on the forums. That isn't "addressing" an issue. It's avoiding it. There's a difference.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2978	Posted - 2013.05.15 12:20:00 - [37] - Quote Israckcatarac wrote: Is this guy for real? You used the AUR to gane SP. No getting that back with out taking the SP away. Are you realy that stupid. I bet your that guy that eats the whole hamburger except that last bite and then demands a new one because it wasn't made right. If I bought a hamburger in a store that was offering a pre-opening deal and they said I'd have a credit for another burger, but I had to return whatever I didn't eat of the first one, then I'd expect a new burger when I go back for the official opening. And actually, I spent my AUR on Blueprints, mostly. As long as I still have them, I still have the value of the Aurum. If they want to refund those BPOs, I won't complain, but I'm not expecting my AUR back AND to keep what I bought. And the only AUR items that directly give you SP are Boosters, which this suggestion specifically excludes from being refunded. What is your argument here?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2981	Posted - 2013.05.15 12:55:00 - [38] - Quote Israckcatarac wrote: The y would have to remove all SP gained while using those AUR items as well as all your stats gained. Do you even realize how big of a lame you have made your self out to be too thousands of people. I'd love to respond to this, but it doesn't appear to be in English. Can you please translate it so I can provide a valid answer to whatever it was you just tried to say? (sorry, but seriously, I have no idea what any of this is meant to mean)
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2982	Posted - 2013.05.15 13:50:00 - [39] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Israckcatarac wrote: The y would have to remove all SP gained while using those AUR items as well as all your stats gained. Do you even realize how big of a lame you have made your self out to be too thousands of people. I'd love to respond to this, but it doesn't appear to be in English. Can you please translate it so I can provide a valid answer to whatever it was you just tried to say? (sorry, but seriously, I have no idea what any of this is meant to mean) I believe he means that full char reset for everyone would be unfair for those who didn't buy a Merc Pack. But it's not: full char reset happens in every other game before launch so that vets don't get an even bigger advantage than they already do. CCP made the myopic and wrong decision to not reset everyone. But that's a moot point now, and too late. And if that is what he meant, that wasn't what people in this thread are asking for anyway, so I'm still not sure about the relevance of the comment.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3070	Posted - 2013.05.16 23:23:00 - [40] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Dexter307 wrote: You lost, just stop it, you dont get free stuff. Even from a "Free-to-play" game? How odd. +1. Made me laugh.

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